Foreign.

Hello and welcome to Live like the World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host for today, Miriam, and today I'm going to be talking with Alex about deportation defense and rapid response. But before we talk about that, we are going to talk about a ad for another podcast on the Anarchist Network of Channel Zero, podcasts of which we are a proud member. And that goes like this.

You're listening to Dissident island radio live every first and third Friday of the month at 9pm GMT. Check out www.dissidentisland.org for downloads and more.

And we're back. So would you like to introduce yourself with whatever name you would like us to use, your pronouns and what you're here to talk to us about today?

Totally. Thanks so much for having me on. My name is Alex and I am doing rapid response trainings and neighborhood walk organization around New York in response to the increased ICE operations we've been seeing in the city.

Great. So you say that you're doing trainings, neighborhood walks, rapid response. What, what are you training people to do? And what are neighborhood walks and rapid response?

Totally. Rapid response networks are pretty simply just a group of concerned neighbors, usually in this day and age, who are communicating over signal that are prioritized. Like they prioritize responding to ICE sightings in their neighborhood to either confirm or document the sighting and to ideally impact ICE's capacity to carry out their operations in that neighborhood. And then in terms of what we're doing on the training front, it's like teaching folks how to identify ICE and some best practices in what ICE has been up to and their tactics as well.

Em what role do neighborhood walks play in this, which I ask you, having recently returned from doing a neighborhood walk with you?

Yeah, of course.

What were we doing out there?

We're pretty much like trying to flip the script. A lot of rapid response is reactive. And especially as ICE is increasingly moving more rapidly through these abductions, it's important to have a regular presence out in neighborhoods that ICE is targeting. And so neighborhood walks are a really good way to get folks out on the ground making connections with their neighborhood, talking to key representatives of their communities like crossing guards, bodega owners, and just interfacing with folks so that when something is off, like your kind of spidey senses go off and you know something wrong is happening and you are familiar enough with your neighborhood that you know how to react and ideally other folks are able to come and support anything that you would run into.

Cool. And is this something that has been used successfully elsewhere? How are we. Where did this idea come from?

Yeah, I mean, I think this is not a new idea. Like, neighborhood walks are just kind of a continuation of the history of community groups coming together to do the job that the police don't. And so it comes from neighborhood watch groups and kind of other proactive, organized efforts to either keep certain communities safe or check on unhoused folks and make sure they're doing all right on the streets. But it definitely has been an interesting kind of switch because for a lot of folks, this is their first time doing something like this. And it's been interesting watching people develop a different way of engaging in a more proactive way of engaging it in their community than they had before.

Yeah, I mean, when you say neighborhood watch, you know, my mind automatically goes to like, cop shit. Right. So how does this differ from cop shit? And is there concern about people perceiving it as cop shit? And when I say people, I mean both, like, people who might not be doing it and who might see people doing this and feel maybe surveilled as well as this is turning into a very long question. Often I find that, like, in anarchist spaces, people who volunteer for things like security duty are people you do not want doing stuff like that. Right. People who sort of attracted to, like, cop like roles. So I guess, I guess the question that I'm asking in summary is how do you avoid this becoming cop shit or being perceived as cop shit?

Totally. I think it's been something that folks in rapid response networks and neighborhood walks groups around the city and I imagine the country have been an ongoing conversation about, especially because a lot of the people that have the privilege and the time to be out doing this and interfacing with ICE are more often than not going to be white people. And so it's a really sensitive balance of kind of treating it a lot more like being a community member and less security. The way that you interface and like, stop and talk to business owners and community members sitting on stoops or like interface with crossing guards and like, the goal is not to be a scary person on the block. It's to be a friendly face that folks recognize and know that you have resources for them. So some ways to prevent that that, like groups are focused on are one, first and foremost, keeping it to the communities that you are a resident in and not going all over the city doing neighborhood walks in places that you are not familiar with. I think another couple ways are really deprioritizing the instinct to when you see a sus car with tinted out windows, realizing that's just your neighbor who doesn't want you in their business and you don't need to like, get in their business or freak them out. And instead, like, if for some reason there's something that's catching your eye, like just keep an eye out for other things and not like accidentally harass community members. There's a couple other things too. In some neighborhoods, groups wear brightly colored whistles as they're out and about just to show like, hey, this is kind of what I'm doing. As like a whistle becomes kind of a visual cue for anti ice resistance. And then also just like really interfacing directly with like distributing materials and treating it as sort of also an opportunity to canvas and less as an opportunity to kind of just be like a silent set of eyes on the street.

That makes sense. Yeah. It's less about like being on patrol than it is about maybe like just seeing your neighborhood more deliberately and you know, on a, on a regular kind of schedule.

Yeah, totally. And I, I do think there's a certain learning curve, especially like, as a lot of people just walk around regularly, they're on their phones looking down. And once people realize that there's this whole hidden operation like going on in their city that's abducting their neighbors, it's like really natural for people to get scared, to get nervous, and to start overreacting to certain things that are just like part of the city landscape. And so it's one of the key parts of this whole effort is making sure that people know what they should actually be on the lookout for and what is not actually a concern at all.

Right. I mean, I know here in New York we have many, many, many different law enforcement agents, agencies rather. And one of the things that you notice in anti ice spaces is like a lot of false alarms caused by people not realizing that like they have strayed, you know, off of like over the invisible line between like a regular New York City street and a national park and, or, or whatever like a state park or something. And now there's like federal agents here because, like this is a national monument or something, or like you're near the port and now there's like port authority people and you know, stuff like that. So sort of keeping your eyes out and understanding like what you are likely to see. And of course the like, yeah, there's a car with tinted windows. Don't, don't bother them. You know, like, this is not, this is not A concern. People, people hang out in cars with tinted windows sometimes and it is definitionally none of your business. And. Yeah, just sort of making yourself something of like a resource. I can, I can see that with the, like, whistles and, and, you know, stuff like that. What, what happens if you see something like, if you, if you see something that you think is really not a, you know, false alarm based on law enforcement agencies, law enforcement agencying around in there. So. Which, like, by the way, not to discount, you know, just because it turns out to be NYPD doesn't mean it's not something bad. But like, when it turns out to be ice, what happens?

Yeah, so when it turns out to be ice, the first thing that needs to happen is for that information to get spread somewhere. We're lucky enough in New York to have a, a hotline whose number I'm not remembering off the top of my head, but would love to link that

in the description it is in my phone because I went through your training. I believe that number is 229304, 8720.

Yes. And that is run by like an unaffiliated group of folks. The last I've heard is from 6am to 8pm and if you even think you see ice, go ahead and give them a ring or shoot them a text and they can help support that sighting. But if you're in a rapid response network, what ends up happening is you'll see an alert probably coming out, and it's important then to kind of move past the initial documentation and into the rest of the process. So one of the goals in training folks for rapid response is to encourage people to do what they can to intervene against ISIS objectives and not just be a bystander. Like, this is a city of 8 million people. There is going to be plenty of bystanders. And it's something we're really hoping to ingrain in our efforts is like, these are your neighbors. And what would you want someone to do if you were being kidnapped by the state and kind of put yourself in those, that person's shoes when you're deciding what kind of action you want to be taking in the street?

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, so, so that's something that like people can do immediately without, you know, without being part of a, of a network necessarily. But if they are part of the network, then in addition to whatever they can do on scene immediately, they can also alert more people to come and converge and respond to other requests to do that.

Totally.

How do we see this on our neighborhood walk you and I were talking about the way that this has looked different in New York than it has in, say, Minneapolis. How do we, like, what lessons are we learning from seeing, you know, what happens when ICE really puts their full force into a specific place? And how can that help us prepare here?

Yeah, it's a good question, and I think is something a lot of people are having conversations about right now. There's really only so much that existing networks can do when ICE brings its full weight into a city. And so in Minneapolis, for example, these really localized neighborhood groups have sprung up where in like a two or three block radius, you'll have a signal chat that's connected to the signal chats in the surrounding area. And those are like hyperlocal examples of, like, not everyone's trained, not everyone can take action, but it's just another form of the communities looking out for each other. And that's been pretty effective in alerting neighbors of ICE activity and also being able to pass on information between localized neighborhood groups. Because of the small scale of these chats, if you get an alert that ICE is around, you can probably get outside and see them in two or three minutes. So, like, the intense localization has been, like, probably one of the best things that's been happening in Minnesota. And so as more and more people in New York are, like, realizing that this is something that is probably going to continue to happen here and we could eventually face, like, a full fledged assault like Minneapolis is has been facing is like, a lot more people are getting involved and it's allowing, like, response to get more localized and less citywide. Like, before Trump took office, like, there was a really solid anti ICE response in a network in New York City. But, like, they have been working, like, to figure out what to do. And I think the answer is, like, a lot of us are figuring out as we go along. It's hard to be adapting to, like, an enemy that is not following the laws. And so as we're learning more and more about ICE activity, we're all having to adapt.

Right? I mean, the laws have never been there to protect anyone, but they do. When government agencies are following laws, it makes their behavior somewhat more predictable.

Yeah, it's like, really the predictability that's been tough. I mean, we've seen these internal memos come out that ICE has frankly been operating under for years of, like, claiming they don't need, like, a judicial warrant to search an apartment or things like that. And just it's one of the things like, that gets shared in trainings Is like, look, like, what we're dealing with here is, like an agency that does not play by the rules, and we cannot count on, like, law and justice in whatever ways we either relate positively or negatively to be on our side. It's got to be people power, and it definitely helps to know our rights and to know our neighbor's rights, and that's really important. And, like, ideally, if someone gets detained illegally, like, information gets passed on to their immigration lawyers, and that person could hopefully get out. But really the biggest thing we can be doing is, like, realizing that the state is not here to save us and it's got to be ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely. So we've touched on a little bit on, like, what some of the information, some of the knowledge that it's important for people to have, you know, going out, what's normal for your neighborhood, what's not normal, what. What rights do people have on paper? What has actually been happening in practice? What skills do you think it is useful for somebody to have going out to do something like this?

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is, and it's kind of easy to joke about, but you kind of have to train your observational skills because ICE is not wearing the same uniforms. They're not behaving exactly the same way each time. And so kind of identifying places in your neighborhood that might make sense for them to target. And, like, also being pretty good at, like, if you see an agent in the street, like, what visual cues are suggesting that that is ICE versus NYPD versus, like, the Department of Sanitation, which also, like, they sometimes have handcuffs and guns, too. And, like, if so, I think the first and foremost, it's observational skills. And to be honest, one of the things that I just talk on and on about is really all that we can do is have a list of tools or kind of a bucket of tools at our disposal. But none of us want to be doing this. It's about honing those skills that, like, namely, like, how are you identifying what's happening in a situation and what you think is going to happen next? And then also, like, practicing or thinking through what you want to be doing should you see ice? Because if you haven't thought about it and you, like, just run into two agents on the street, like, you're probably not going to make the decision that you're going to feel good about the next week. And so taking a second and thinking through what your personal risk looks like, what you want to be doing, especially to center the person that ICE is targeting, it's Kind of just like a mental. Not gymnastics. But there's a lot of things that the more you think about them, the more they become a part of the way you're operating as you're moving around the city. And the closer to second nature these things can become, the better. It's not things that I think most of us have, like, naturally as skills. It's because none of us should be having to deal with this. It's like the short answer.

Yeah. I mean, and the extent that people have previous experience of being on guard for law enforcement, you know, being prepared for things like that is going to vary. But. Yeah, and I mean, the other thing that, that was sort of coming up for me that, like, people have to be comfortable talking to strangers and talking to their neighbors. And like, I think that that's something that is, that is like, so important for. You know, we talk a lot on this podcast in general about, like, disaster preparedness and like 90% of disaster preparedness in a city is knowing your neighbors and like, being able to work with them in a crisis.

Yeah. And I think it's so, like, it's so important to be putting in this work. Like, it shouldn't take a crisis for us to know our neighbors, but it is a good reminder that our best defense are the people around us. And if your next door neighbor gets abducted and you've never spoken to them, their family's probably not going to want to talk to you, even if you're trying to help. But if you've been able to establish these relationships ahead of time, it makes everything smoother. And also, like, it's just called being a neighbor. Like, it's, it's, it's good for you, it's good for them. And. Yeah, I, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's a really good point.

Right. And, you know, even if everything works out great and your neighborhood is never subject to an ice raid, it sure would be nice for like, your neighbor to know that, like, they can borrow your snow shovel, you know, or, or whatever else, whatever other kind of help you guys might be able to provide for each other. Because like you said, that's just being a neighbor. And it does. Like, I like a thing that I like about the neighborhood walks as you describe them, especially sort of in the. Less like, you know, the way that sort of pings is less like neighborhood watchy to me is that, like, it kind of does just sound like going outside and talking to your neighbors, you know, or just going for a walk and Seeing how Ruben's doing. And I know, you know, also on this podcast, Margaret was recently in Minneapolis and was saying that, like, people there who don't walk are sitting on their porches keeping an eye out, which is another, you know, classic way of being a neighbor. Not something anyone is currently doing in New York because it is cold and we're not tough like people in Minneapolis in terms of being outside. But I mean, I guess that's another reason that it's important to push this now, right? People are not naturally inclined to be outside right now in the way that they might be.

It takes a little extra work. And I think that is one of the things that's most helpful about a structured neighborhood walk group is we're all holding ourselves accountable to this common goal. And it's a group of people that walk, recognize each other. And so you're not like, if you end up in a rapid response situation, it's not with 10 strangers, it's with people that you, like, know and trust each other's skill sets and like, know how to take care of each other and support each other. And it's way less like an anonymous signal verse thing and way more of a real life, like, neighborhood group.

Yeah, I mean, the anonymous signal verse thing is so real. I. I am somebody who is naturally very bad at names and faces. And so it does not help when like half people in my phone become like carrot emoji, you know, and like change it every few weeks. Like it. You do need to actually like, interact with people in person to know who you're talking to and to know who is going to be standing beside you or have your back in an actual crisis. An actual rapid response.

Yeah.

So having that kind of practice does seem really useful. What is. I mean, let's say somebody. Let's sort of start with the idea that somebody does not have this network where they live. They have already searched for rapid response and the name of their town and they haven't found anything. Do you think that this is like a useful practice for an individual or a group of friends to take on? Like, short of actually starting a rapid response network? Is that, is that how you would go about starting a rapid response or would you try to build it more from an organizational standpoint?

That's a good question. I think an important context is a rapid response network is just a piece of the pie. They're the first line of defense and often the first folks on the scene. But it really fits into a larger network of immigrants rights and immigrants defense orgs that have been doing this stuff for decades. This is just, like an added, less institutional layer. And so I think the most important initial thing is to get in touch with existing organizers or organizations that are in this space and seeing what. What has already been set up. Like, it's very possible that there's already, like, access to, like, immigration attorneys or that there's, like, a mechanism for reporting ICE sightings. And, like, fitting yourself in as a piece of the puzzle instead of trying to build something from scratch is, like, a really important way to, like, both respect the. The work that's been going on. Like, before any of us, like, most of us have realized that this is something we need to be caring about and also to, like, effectively use your time and your community's time to, like, it's. To, how can I help? And realize that you're just part of the equation. Like, none of us are doing this from scratch. None of us are, like, experts. It's all about, like, figuring out how to build this network together from, like, top to bottom.

Yeah, no, I'm really glad you said that, because I think, you know, anytime there is a sort of time of mass mobilization where people get involved who have not previously been involved, on the one hand, that's like, an amazing thing, and it's this influx of energy and this influx of help. And then on the other hand, I think there can be, like, a real weariness for people who have been doing the work this whole time of. Especially because a lot of people who have not been doing the work come in thinking that they are going to invent it, right? That. That they are going to sort of lead the charge and, like, build a infrastructure for this. So many of them will do that by starting nonprofits, you know, and that tends to not only end up with a bunch of wasted effort, but it also diverts resources away from where they could actually be going. And it's rude. It is just rude to the people who have been doing the work. So, yeah, as simple as the sort of task itself of doing a neighborhood walk is, it does make a lot of sense that, like, listen, if there's immigrants in your neighborhood, there's probably also immigrant advocacy in your neighborhood. And, like, those people are there and they've been working on. Unless you are listening, I hate saying they know more than you, because you could be listening to this and you could be an immigration activist with decades of experience. So, you know, if what I'm saying doesn't apply to you, you know that. But for the most part, they know More than you. And they know what needs to be done. And these sort of simple things you can do do need to like, plug in somewhat to a larger structure if you're going to be some. If you're going to do something other than be standing alone in front of ICE agents.

Yeah, I mean, and like, I do not pretend to be an expert on this. I think like one of the things that like this has like borne out like in cities across the United States is there is like there are existing networks in place and then there wasn't like as much of a need for massive rapid response networks under the way that deportations were happening, like Obama and Biden. Sure. Under those presidents an immense amount of deportations were happening, but they weren't happening in the same on the street in New York City ICE agents or Minneapolis ICE agents fighting residents way. And so there's been an interesting shift towards like, okay, this is a new way that ICE is engaging in doing this work for a lot of cities in the United States. How can we support these existing efforts to do something that frankly a lot of them don't have the capacity. Non profits are understaffed, like community orgs, like, they are really good at what they do and oftentimes they like can't do it all. And so like figuring out the ways to fit in and also like, what skills you can offer, like, especially if you're like a white person, like a white citizen, like, this is, it's really important for like us like as a white person, like we all should be like the out in the streets like as much as we can. Like, I mean, for like as long as the United States has been a thing like black and brown folks have like borne the brunt of state violence and this is continuing like obviously with like these ICE incursions. And so the more that like white folks can use our privilege, especially like, you know, like ICE agents do not like see white people as the same like level of like, oh, that's someone I'm going to deport. Even if they're like an Eastern European immigrant that like moved here six months ago. And so using that as a tool so that other people who don't have the privilege or risk tolerance to be out in the streets can be supporting immigration efforts and anti ICE efforts in a safer way for them.

Yeah, no, and I mean, I don't want to downplay the extent to which this is a risky thing to do. Right. I mean, yeah, certainly that is one of the lessons of Minneapolis is that this isn't Safe, but it is necessary.

Yeah. It's a tough balance to strike, especially as, like, you and I were talking about earlier. It's like, it's a lot of people. It's the first time. It's like, you know, every movement, like, there's a new wave of, like, how can I plug in? And for a lot of folks, that's looked like rapid response, which is a lot different of a vibe than like, a mass march or, like, occupation. Like, just in terms of the level of, like, state violence that we're, like, seeing. I mean, like, obviously, like, this has been happening like, like, with like, Black Lives Matter in Minneapolis and like, in the past further. But it has been, like, kind of heartening to see how many people are willing to throw down and, like, are just looking for ways to plug in. I think it's been like, a moment, like, since 2020. Everyone's like, where did everyone go? People were so down to, like, block the streets and, like, cause a ruckus. And, you know, in the last couple years, like, like, the public discourse, especially around Palestine protests, had shifted to the point where it's just like, like, everyone's condemning, like, Palestine protesters for just even being in the street. And, like, now it seems like we're back and, like, it's unfortunate that, like, it took all of these years and, like, for folks to not listen to, like, Palestinian organizers when we're seeing, like, the tactics that, like, the IDF is using in, like, Palestine used right now in, like, our cities, like, I mean, in the Brooklyn Navy Yard, like, cry precision, precision. Like they outfit both the IDF and ice.

Absolutely.

And like, these struggles are really interconnected, and it's, like, really great to see people showing up for this.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that you. That you bring up the Palestine protests because we did see a lot of that here in New York, and it was very successfully repressed by the state. And one of the things that I think the anti ICE movement has going for it in terms of just like, keeping people in the streets, keeping the energy levels up, is that what is that what is happening is direct action. Right. It is not symbolic. It is not marching with a sign. It is not saying, we're doing this to prove X. It's literally saying, no, we're not going to let you do that. And that means that when there's a victory, it's real, right? It's real. It happens in front of you. People, you know, can be helped concretely and, like, the. The state can be resisted concretely and. And in A way that is that you don't have to explain the symbolism of. Right.

Yeah.

And that is not to discount, like, yeah, it is really important to get powerful entities like schools and businesses to divest their money from Israel. Right. It is really important to do that. But when, when that, but that becomes a, like, we have to put pressure on the people with the power to do this, to get them to do this, to make it harder for them to not do it than it is for them to do it. Whereas when it comes to resisting ice, it's just, no, no, you're not going to do that. It's not about pressure, it's not about argument, it's not about messaging. It's just direct. And my most curmudgeonly opinion is that people say direct action a lot of the time when they mean civil disobedience or like crime. Right. They use direct action to mean like, the action I am taking is illegal. And like, no, that's not what direct action is. Direct action is you don't like the way something is, so you're fixing it. And that can mean, I don't like that people are hungry so I'm feeding them. It can mean I don't, like, theoretically, I don't like that that pipeline is there, so I'm making it to go away, you know, or in this case it means I don't like that ICE is coming after my neighbor, so I'm stopping them. And that's direct action. And that's like much, much more. It's easier for people to engage with. It's easier for people to see the results. And so people don't burn out on it the way they do. I think on symbolic action, you can carry that sign all day and it just doesn't, you know, you have to convince yourself that what you're doing is having an impact.

Totally. I do think, like the Demilitarized Brooklyn Navy Yard campaign is a really good example of like, like these are weapons manufacturers, like in our neighborhood. And like there's like, you know, the city could get rid of them. I know we're kind of taking a turn with this, but no, like that city owned property discussions. And like it's, you know, like, I think it is one of the things that like everyone talks about is the more immediately you're experiencing and witnessing like violence and like harm coming to folks, the more like you're going to physically respond. And yeah, when like at the end of the day, if like you can stop your neighbor from getting abducted, that's like That's a really easy thing to, like, think through what the, like, result of that is going to be. And I think it's, like, gotten a lot of people pretty activated.

Right. Well, and like you said, when you realize that, you know, you are resisting the abduction of your neighbor and you realize that the same weapons being carried by the people who are trying to abduct your neighbor come from this place that is also supplying the idf. Yeah. It makes that connection for you, and it makes that your struggle in a way that it might not have felt like it was before. You here being like, the hypothetical person who is getting involved in activism for the first time, not you specifically.

Yeah.

You know, and I think, like, it is. It is so often the case that activism that is, like, really rooted in the community sort of builds up from there. Right. And it can start with the most basic, most local stuff, but it doesn't have to stay there.

Yeah. And I think it's a really good opportunity right now for folks to, if this is your first time doing, getting involved in community organizing and activism, to think about things like forming an affinity group that can be doing things beyond just rapid response. Because I think it's always unfortunate that it takes a crisis to get us here. But like we keep saying on this, like, as we're chatting, like, community and like, creating a neighborhood feel is like, like, so, so important. And like, these localized structures are the best way for us to be protecting ourselves.

Right. And there is already a crisis. Right. The. The crisis existed before this current wave of deportations. Like you said, there were already deportations happening before Trump was in office and before I showed up en masse to Minneapolis. The crisis did not just start. And even if the energy builds around the crisis, it can continue. And that's sort of what we hope for, I guess. I think we see that with some of the mutual aid efforts that got started during COVID lockdown, which sort of was the crisis at the moment. But people were able to maintain that infrastructure and keep doing some of the things that they started doing.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So as we, I think, get. Get closer to the end here, we talked about how people can plug in if they're. I mean, I think if there is a rapid response in your area, you will find it by searching deportation rapid response and then the name of your area. Right.

Yeah. I also think following good lefty orgs on Instagram and showing up in person is a really good way to do it. The more you can be interfacing in real life the better. But odds are a progressive group in your area has contacts, so definitely feel free to reach out to them.

Yeah. And whoever is doing the immigration advocacy in your area, are there, are there any other things that you want us to touch on here? Are there any other aspects to this project that we, that we're missing?

I mean, I'm sure there are. Like, I don't think.

Oh yeah, no, we didn't talk about all the things. That's true.

But yeah, I think if you're like looking to get involved in like, I think the best thing to do is like form some sort of local neighborhood structure and ensure that whatever you're doing is centering your neighbors that are being impacted. It's like very easy to get angry and yell at an ICE agent and it's a lot harder to think like, how can I help this person? How can I make sure that this, which is right now the worst day like of their life does not get any worse? And I think it's like a hard, like hard thing to do because we're all, we all have a fear response. We all see these people who we know like, we see them committing just atrocious crimes day in and day out, like in videos on the Internet. And it's hard to like move past that anger towards productive action. But thinking through how you would respond, I think it's a really good tool. And then I think the other thing I would mention is just like, if you see ICE is responsible reporting. One of the things the state is counting on is for us to be supporting their fear mongering efforts. And we don't need to be doing that. So any way that you can like report ice, it should be specific. If you haven't heard of Salute, you can go to salute.digital Kyr and it'll walk you through exactly how to report an ICE sighting. And if you're in New York City, the National Guard and undercover NYPD on the subway, those are not ice. They are being annoying and they are like harassing our neighbors. But that is not ice. And so just taking an extra second and confirming that what you're seeing in this moment of fear is actually part of this abduction regime, which also does include other federal agencies.

Right.

We're really not going to get through all of it, but most of the immigration groups in New York City have really good resources. NYC and make the Road have really good explainers on things. And then Mitlali has support for post detention resources as well. Those are my three organizational shouts there.

Nice. Yeah, no what you mentioned about NYPD being in the subway, it's like. And. And that's not. That's not okay either. Right. NYPD is in some way ostensibly, you know, because of people. You know, NYPD is in the subway and has murdered people for. Or shot people for evading the fair. Right?

Yeah.

Like, they. And as well as their, like, normal routine of harassing people for being asleep in the subway when it is zero degrees outside. Like, that sucks too. But what you need to do about that particular shitty thing is a different thing than what you do about ICE staging for a raid and mistaking NYPD or National Guard in the subway for ice. Staging for a raid is a problem.

Yeah.

You know, not just because it is, like, factually incorrect, but because if you're putting out there, you know, ICE is on the. The two train and ICE is not on the two train. You have done a great disservice to everybody who normally takes the 2 train and maybe wasn't able to today and maybe did not get to work or whatever because they were convinced by the rumor mongering that, like, they shouldn't, you know, that they needed to avoid that spot. Yeah, no Salute is. I'm glad y' all are putting that out there. Do you want to tell us what salute stands for? Do you want to run through that real quick? I'm sure we've done this on the podcast before, but you know what? It's always good to do it again. Tell us about salute.

Let's see if I can do it off the top of my head. So salute's an acronym. S is size and strength. Like, how many agents do you see? How many vehicles do you see? A is activity? What are they up to? Are they currently door knocking a building, or are they hovering up, huddling in a parking lot around like a caravan of vehicles? L is location, but also is direction. So where have you seen? Where did you see them? And which way are they going? Are they walking down the street? Are they driving, like, one way or the other? Like, those are really important things to share that allow rapid responders to know both where to go and also do not have to follow, but can proactively go, oh, they're heading this way. I can go there. U is uniform. So, like, maybe their vests say HSI and they might be wearing face coverings because all of these federal agencies have been deputized to support on immigration raids. Like, you could see an ICE raid and not see a single ICE vest. It could be like, HSI ERO enforcement Removal operations like FBI, but sending those specific things and not just saying, ICE is a really good tool for folks to know what to expect. T is time. It's really, really important to timestamp exactly when you've seen this sighting because ICE moves quickly, and we want to. It's important to prioritize rapid response. But it doesn't make sense to set for people to mobilize or to be scared if a sighting was an hour or two ago, like, ICE is probably gone. They've done their stuff, and we don't need to be scaring our neighbors or mobilizing people for something that's hours old. And then e is equipment. So, like, what do they have on them? Do they have, like, a massive van where it looks like they're trying to load a whole bunch of people into it? Do they have, like, flex cuffs, or are they wearing body cams? Like, if you're not sure it's NYPD or your local police department or ice, Like, NYPD all has the same issued body cam. They might not always be wearing it, but it's a good sign that it's them. And this is just like, a really good way so that you aren't the person deciding if it's ICE so that you can send this along and people know what is actually been seen and can help make those decisions on what response needs to happen.

Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much. I did put you on the spot to do the acronym off the top of your head, and you did it perfectly. The time thing is so key because, like you said, these. These operations have typically been pretty quick, and if a message gets circulated, you know, people don't check their phones always right away. So somebody might see something and think, well, I'm not in the neighborhood. I can't get there. But they might share it in another group chat. And if it's not timestamped, so they're sharing it, you know, hours later. And then that, like, you can have these messages, these alerts shared from hours or days ago that are not doing anyone any good, which is sort of. Not to say, like, it is important to talk about raids that have already happened. Right. It's important both from like a. Like, almost like a. Like a journalistic perspective, like, what is happening, what. What is going on? And, like, you know, making sure that people are aware of. Of, like, what these raids look like when they happen. Okay. Like, do we know? You know, did they show up, look for one specific person, and then leave when told that person wasn't there? Did they come into the house? You know, like, that's all really good information, but it's not necessarily something that people are going to. Rapid response to.

Right, Exactly. Yeah.

Is it, Is it important to, like, how, how best to. I don't want to start a whole new topic, but, like, how best to deal with that kind of information?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're in a place that has existing structures set up, odds are people in the chats you're joining or immigration rights groups will know what to do with it. Especially in a state like New York, where judges have had more success in getting people that ICE has detained released. ICE moves really quickly to process the people that they kidnap to. To try to get them out of the state. And so if getting key information, especially an emergency contact number, to the right person is really important because the person ISIS just abducted could be gone in the next six hours. And so moving quickly after the fact is an essential part of response.

Yeah. What about, I mean, this is one of those sort of controversial topics, but what about live streaming or immediately posting video? How would you, would you exercise caution there, would you say?

I mean, I think especially at a larger raid, like, or if people haven't been trained, like, folks livestream and take indiscriminate photos of most, like, things that are going on. It's. I think it's one of those interesting questions of, like, I mean, I'm imagining many of us have seen, like, videos that have, like, inspired us to, like, feel extra frustrated or want to take more action. And it's always good to document and especially take videos of what ICE agents are doing. But the, like, the less we can be, like, showing faces of voices and faces of people that ICE is trying to abduct or of other rapid responders, the better because we don't need to either make that person's day any worse or potentially disclose information about who was responding. Especially as we know ICE is like, new Best friend is their facial recognition app. And so, like, the more that we can, like, also, if you're responding, you should wear a mask.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

Yeah, we, like, the state does not need our information. And so, like, you're not only protecting yourself, but you're protecting everyone else that you're doing this work with. And you're making, like, their lives harder because you're not handing them valuable biometric data on a silver Potter.

Yeah, definitely. Exercising caution about your face and the faces of your neighbors is a good call.

Yeah.

Cool. So is there Anything that you'd like to plug, anything that you'd like to direct people to before we wrap up here?

I don't think so. I think if you're New York based, it's pretty easy to tap into the rapid response groups here. The most visible being hands off. They have public facing trainings which do a pretty good job of going through a lot of know your rights and how to document and that's a really good first step. Also, if you are in connection with any mutual aid groups or like local orgs that you have a relationship with, those are really good folks to reach out to to get into other groups as well. Like, the more we can like be building like community out of people that we all know, the safer all of us are.

Absolutely. Hell yeah. Thank you very much for, for talking to us, for taking me on a neighborhood walk. And now is the part where I thank other people too. So just hold on one second. We'll do that. So we are going to thank everybody who is listening, but also in particular everybody who supports us on Patreon. Consider doing that if you want to. Don't do it if you don't want to. That's how you make that decision. If you support us at a certain level, I believe it's $20 a month. We will thank you on our podcasts, every single one. When we do it, it sounds like this. Thank you to Hoss the Dog Nicole and Tikva the Dog Micaiah, Chris, Kirk, Micah, Dana, David Paige, sj Theo Milica, Paparuna, Allie, Janice and Odell Princess Miranda Community Books of Stone Mountain, Georgia Lord Harkin Carson Julia People's University of Palestine Boldfeld, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace Appalachian Liberation Library Ephemeral Amber Sunshine, Aidan and Yuki the Dog Jenny and Phoebe the Cats Jason Shulva, Blink Cat Farrell in West Virginia, the Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Rifle association, the Canadian Socialist Rifle Association. Karen Lancaster chooses Love Enchanted Rats of Turtle Island. Max Hyunhi A Future for Abby Alexander Gopal the Incredible runner I the Ko Initiative, the Golden Gate 26 tiny nonsense Mark, your Canadian friend, Mr. Crafty Sarah Baby Acab and her three great pups, TSNB. I don't know what that stands for, so you can make up whatever you want. Opticuna, the Athens People's assembly of Athens, Georgia, the Astoria Food Pantry Ivy, Sorry about that. The Pocono Pink Pistols and also another list that is on another page. Here we go. Simone Weil Staying Hydrated brought to you by Hannah Potatoes Tenebrous Press Arguing about what to shout Out Experimental Farm Network, Accordions, Dolly Parton and Edgar Miaolin Po, who are, as far as we know, cats. The Black Travel Collective, Groot the Dog who's Probably a Dog, Nico the Waterfront Project, Tikva's Favorite Stick, Uliksei and Alder Na Be Kind and Talk to Strangers. And Cool Zone Media. Sorry to all of those that I stumbled over. I won't do that next time. Except I might thank you again for telling us about Rapid Response Networks.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Have a great day.

You too.