Foreign.

Hello and welcome to Live like the World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Cassandra. I haven't been here a while, I'm happy to be back, and I enjoy they them pronouns. With me today is a guest who shall remain anonymous welcome, which is apt considering our subject. We're going to talk about doxxing, what it is, why it sucks, how to avoid it, how to deal with it if you do get doxxed. But first, Live like the World Is Dying is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of Anarchist podcasts. Here's a jingle from another member of the network. Do do do.

Welcome to Propaganda by the Seed, a podcast about plants and the nerds that love them. We alternate between hour long episodes that usually focus on a single species or crop and shorter episodes that focus on topics related to plants like grafting, composting, and the rest. You can find Propaganda by the Seed on the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts at propagandabytheseed.com or most podcast platforms. I'll see you deep in the weeds.

Foreign.

Hey everyone, It's Inman from Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, and we have a really exciting new book to tell you about. Uprising is an unapologetic chorus of mad voices that refuse to conform or cower in the shadows. It was born from a collaboration between two organizations rooted in community Workman Arts, a multidisciplinary arts organization supporting artists with lived experience of mental health and or addictions, and Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a collectively run publisher of radical culture grounded in anarchist ideals. We invited writers with lived experience of mental health and or addiction issues from across Canada to send us their stories, poems, daydreams, imaginings, and manifestos around all the things it can mean to rebel. What we received exceeded our expectations. While some pieces whisper rebellion through the quiet acts of survival, others rage loudly against psychiatric incarceration, systemic violence, and various forms of injustice. Many of the pieces stare you defiantly in the eye while rupturing sanist stereotypes. They subvert genre. They challenge traditional literary structures. They dare to crip time and space to be nonlinear. Some pieces queer what healing means and turn the notion of recovery on its head until it's too dizzy to stand. None of these works follow a straight path. They all twist and tangle into a messy but bold collection of rebellious imaginings. This collection isn't about overcoming madness. It's about thriving with our madness fully and fiercely on our own terms. You can pre order Uprising right [email protected] or or ratty and cantaddy, if you are ordering from Canada.

And we're back. Hello.

Hey there.

So anonymity is great. What pronouns do you use? And also what's a little context for why we're here talking to you?

Yeah, I use she, her pronouns. I am a long time organizer, activist and have helped folks that have been doxed or are in the process of recovering from a docs.

What is doxing?

So doxing. There are, I like to say, a few different types of doxing. So like there's a soft docs where, let's say your photo gets put online with your first and last name. That's kind of like a soft docs. You have a mid docs as well. And these aren't like official names. These are just kind of what I refer to them as, where it's name your age, like maybe where you live or have lived in the past. Sometimes socials will be linked to that as well. And then you have your hard docs, which is kind of all encompassing, you know, of all of that information. Maybe your Social Security number, your medical record number, your, you know, family members names. It's way more extensive and way more intrusive. So that's kind of all encompassing. But basically it is a publishing of your personal information and, and, or your loved one's personal information with the intent to cause you, the person being doxed, distress.

Yeah. Why, why does doxxing happen? Like why would that even.

Doxxing can happen? I think for a number of reasons. I know that the right, specifically a lot of conservative folks, proud boys and the such, have used doxing of leftists and anarchists as a scare tactic. So you have right wing journalists, and I use journalists in air quotes, but like Andy Noem, that will publish people's booking photos even though he's not supposed to have access to those and things like that in an attempt to rouse their followers into harassing that person, making them feel unsafe, making their family members feel unsafe, things like that. So it's, it's a scare tactic and it has, it can have detrimental end results. So. Yeah, yeah.

And it feels like I like that you broke it into different levels because I feel like soft doxing is a thing that people accidentally do to each other all the time.

Mm, yeah, absolutely.

Protest photos.

Yeah, you know, it's like the old adage, no, no face, no case when you're out protesting and stuff because you know, there are folks out there that might not be as familiar with security culture and they might be like, oh my God, look at all these people. Snap photo, snap photo, snap photo. If your face just happens to be in there, you know, someone down the road, if they're like, oh, I want to find out who this person is, and they might come across that photo. And all of a sudden now your name is linked to this photo. And not only that, but the people you're with might be exposed as well, that sort of thing. So, yeah, soft docs, you know, definitely less scary, but can lead down the rabbit hole to hard docs as well.

Yeah. And then what are, like, what are the consequences of a hard docs?

Yeah. So, you know, people coming to your house, people coming to your family's house. I know that, you know, some people will use their parents addresses, that sort of thing for, you know, mail, that sort of thing. So that's on their voter registration or that's on an information gathering website. So they might have people coming to their family's house, to their house, people calling their jobs, their places of work to try to get them fired. I know that people have threatened children's schools and to call into the school and things like that. So, I mean, it's really dependent on the person that is doing the doxing or their followers and how far their followers want to take that. Another thing that people will do is they'll be calling you, calling you, messaging your social media, that sort of thing, saying all sorts of things about you and your family. And, you know, it can be very emotionally taxing. I think that's really the end result of this is like, it's just emotionally taxing for folks.

Yeah. So on someone like Andy.

No. Who.

I don't know. When I think of doxing, that's like the first person that comes to us.

The Dachshund Queen. Yes.

It seems like, like, it doesn't seem like he usually has a specific call to action, but he's posting people's information just to sow chaos and.

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely what it is. I mean, I think that, you know, we have the Andy knows of the world. Another person, which I even hate mentioning this person's name, but was Joey Campbell. He's currently in Interpol custody after attempting to fake his own death several times. That's a whole other rabbit hole. Yeah. So I mean, if that's not a testament to, you know, what a great person he is. But anyway, you know, there is no call to action. The call to action is implied, I guess, to their followers to say, hey, I've deemed this person that I'm Doxing a bad person, you should also do that. And if they get harassed in the process. Oh well, they were asking for it.

Sure.

And that's. Yeah, I mean that's absolutely not a thing that is a call to action or anything that they should be doing. But that's, that's what happens.

Yeah. So it seems like it's hard to point it and be like that's harassment or something.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's no. I mean, I know like you were saying with Andy, you know, he doesn't say, oh, we've put person A and B's photo and their names out there and they work at such and such a place. Go harass them. Yeah, go, go call their mom. Go. You know, they don't say that sort of thing, but their, their followers definitely are like, well, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make their life miserable. So.

Yeah. So as folks involved in political things, this is a huge question, but like how do we avoid doxing? I imagine there's like the digital side and the physical and.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there, there is no way to prevent all of your information. If you are just an everyday citizen like you and I. There's no way to just absolutely prevent your information from being leaked by someone or being on the Internet. There are ways to help it, of course. So kind of breaking down the, the Internet side of it, the digital side. So the, you know, saying the Internet is forever low key is for sure. There are programs like Delete Me that is probably the most popular one. It does cost money. I know for us, like in our circles here, that we have helped fundraise for people to use Delete Me. But what that does is it rounds up your information on those information gathering sites like truth finder, peoplesearch.com, all that good stuff. Right. And it will start to take that information off of those websites. Sure, you can do that yourself. It is a long, arduous project and it takes forever. I know. I started doing it for myself and then I said this sucks. So there are ways to do it. But Delete Me is a great, great resource for that. Things that you can do. Besides that, I mean, shutting down your social media, I would say is like shutting down social media. Sure. I know that that is not always feasible for everyone. And so just putting everything on private, you know, if you're using your real name on there, you know, make sure it's not a photo of you. That sort of thing can be a silly cartoon or, you know, whatever works. So making sure that your name is not linked to a photo. You know, I know that there are social media apps like Facebook that have the option to view as. I definitely encourage people, if you are still using Facebook to look at your settings, view as, and then see what people who are just scrolling through trying to find any information can see from your Facebook. Yeah, it's. I definitely went through that with my mom the other day and it's like, we gotta shut this down. Change your settings to private. Change your settings to friends only. You know, I know several people that will accept every friend request that comes their way. They don't necessarily do the things that some of myself and my friends do, so they have a little bit more leeway with their privacy. However, you know, I would strongly encourage you, if you have friends or folks like that on your social media to consider are they close enough friend to stay on my social media? Because I know that sometimes when people are doxing, they will go to a more open profile and then they'll look through all of the likes and the comments and things like that and then they'll be able to find you from there. So just keep that in mind. And it sounds so paranoid. Like, I know I go through this every month when I'm like doing a security checkup on my own social and things like that. It's like, God, I look so paranoid. I'm. But this is where we're at. There are different avenues. And yeah, some of that is just scrolling through social media. In fact, a lot of it is so Instagram. I mean, keep that private. If you have your blue sky Mastodon, the heck with X or Twitter. But you know, if you still have that, obviously not using your real name is always an option. And using an email that is not your real name. I know that I have one for my real name that I use in professional life, but in everyday life, I have an email that is not linked to me at all using things like ProtonMail instead of Gmail. So there are so, so, so many options out there. I mean, you can just look up ways to keep myself safe against doxxing. I know that the Civil Rights Department, Department of Justice Civil Rights Unit has an anti doxing safety guide that was made before the current administration. But you know, it's got a checklist of things. I definitely go over those with people. When we are looking at how to keep ourselves digitally safe, I know that that website also has a breakdown state by state, not just federally. Interesting because yeah, there are different. Doxing laws in states versus federal and yada yada. So that's a little bit like digitally. So I did want to touch on work stuff because I know that there are many professional websites out there where they have the photos of their employees and the names and a little descriptor like, you know, so and so is from Oklahoma. And they are, you know, they've been in this profession how many years. They enjoyed spending time with their kid and their dog and it just gives little itty bitty clues. So, yeah, talking to your HR department, talking with your, you know, CEOs, directors, whoever is in charge, letting them know how I am not consenting to my name and everything being put on there. You have the legal right to do that without getting in trouble. There is no reason why or how they can make you put your information out there. And I would hope that in today's climate that more employers would be willing to say, oh, okay, yeah, no worries, we'll take you off. And that's that. So, um, so a little bit on that when you are, you know, everyday life. Because hopefully we don't live our whole lives on social media.

God, I really hope we don't.

Yeah. So everyday life. I mean, I know when I first started getting into this again, I felt paranoid. You know, I was kind of like looking over my shoulder everywhere I went. But that's not the way to live life. You can't live life like that and still function. So I do little things. You know, I have the. I have a change of clothes in my car. I have several, actually. So if I am at an action or whatnot, or if I do run into a situation where someone who might know who I am, who is wanting to or has threatened me, I am able to kind of change my clothes, change my look and get out of the situation. I know that that is very like spy movie type stuff, but, like, that's where we're at.

Yeah.

When I am out and about, I'm not connecting to the WI fi of every building that we come into or whatnot. If I'm out in an action, I am covered head to toe. If I am out and about in a professional setting and I don't know the people that I am meeting, I am covering up my tattoos and more identifying information about myself that is on my body.

Can we define head to toe?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So when I am covered up head to toe at an action, I mean that, like long sleeves, I don't have any identifying information on my hands. A lot of folks decide or choose to wear gloves, that is totally up to you. I find that, you know, I have a hard time wearing gloves personally. So if you want to wear gloves, great, definitely do it. If you have identifying pieces of information on your hand, pants, boots, tennis shoes, whatever. And I'm wearing a mask, I am wearing a hat, I am wearing a hood, I am wearing everything. The only thing that is not 100% covered is my eyeballs. I will normally wear my sunglasses over my eyes. I know that there are government organizations such as ICE that have that thermal recognition. They can see through the sunglasses and stuff like that. So that's not necessarily helpful in that aspect. But when you are coming against people such as, you know, we'll use ICE as an example. If there are counter protesters and they're taking photographs, my eyes aren't going to be shown in those photographs.

Yeah.

So when I say head to toe, I mean like literally top of my head, down to my toes is cover. Yeah. And I try to be, I try to look a little bit more normal in my everyday life, but I am wearing a little bit anyway. But I am wearing, you know, a lot of long sleeves. Pants are my go to because I do have identifying information on my body such as tattoos and things like that that could be used to match to photographs or descriptions from other people.

So yeah, I think about glasses and eyebrows a lot as someone who has to wear glasses.

Yeah, yeah. I also have to wear glasses. I kind of do a big no, no when it comes to actions and I will put contacts in and just.

Hope you don't get pepper spray.

Right. Yeah. And just pray. Sure. Yeah. Just YOLO through it. I guess it's fine. Yeah. So I will, I'll wear my sunglasses. If I have goggles or like a gas mask or whatever, obviously that's a little bit of a different story. It's easier to get away with wearing contacts. For anyone listening, please don't wear contacts. Don't do as I do. Because you know that pepper spray to your gas and things like that can really cause irritation to your eyeballs. But yeah, as somebody who also wears glasses, I have worn my glasses and then sunglasses. I do have a pair of those granny like full blinders that I sweep. Yeah. It really comes down to I don't care what I look like anymore. My protection is more important to me than my fashion choices while I'm out in an action.

Yeah.

And you know, comes down to. Yeah, I, I would hope that you, whoever's listening, you put that sense of like ego and pride in how we look, because we all have it aside and say, okay, I'd rather be protected than show off who I am as a person. The more that we can blend in at actions, the better it is for us to stay safe, obviously, in our everyday life. Like, I do have my own way of dressing and things like that, but I am just mindful of how I do it. If I'm out with friends at like a birthday party or something, and I know it's going to be just a group of us, I am more open with the way that I dress. I am more. I don't know, to be honest with you, it's all black anyway. So just like, you know, I will wear the, you know, local metal shirt and like short sleeves and shorts and stuff like that, because I know these people, I trust these people. Um, if I am at a birthday party and we are, you know, downtown or something like that, I'm going to dress a little bit more conservatively. And it's not conservative out of values, it is conservative out of safety. And so that's kind of a little bit on that. So.

Okay, when we talk about doxxing, I feel like years ago when I thought of doxxing, what I was thinking about was citizens, community members who are on the far right targeting me. And now things have come to this point where there's this overlap. And it's not just your average everyday chud, it's also the government. Right. And so it seems like a lot of these doxxing prevention tactics are also just like basic. Yeah, basic security for anyone doing political work at this point.

Yeah, I mean, it's a heck of a lot easier to protect yourself from somebody that happens to be on the right, proud boy, whoever, who just has, like, access to Google. Right? Yeah, way more like way easier to protect yourself. But when it comes to the police, the court systems, attorneys, and you might have someone that is friends with one of those people who might be able to say, oh, well, here's a little tidbit of information that might be interesting to you because we have seen that where it's not being. We're not like being doxed by a police officer, but it might be someone that is friends with them or close with them and they have this information and you have to stop and think, how the heck did they get that? Well, what's the common denominator here? Yeah, you know, we can use Google. You know that is true. Yes. But they also have access to things like court records and previous addresses. And we have seen things like hospital like patient numbers being released. And we have seen things like Social Security numbers, that sort of things on hospital records. So you're the patient demographic sheet, those being released as well. You know, it's, it's scary. It's scary because you don't know who is behind a computer. You don't know who's going to recognize a tattoo or who is going to recognize work or overhear something that you're saying and say, oh, that's an anti fascist. And I know exactly who to get this information to. And so we kind of like have. We ride this thin line of being like proud anti fascist and like wanting to do our best for our community. And also, you know, I don't, I'm allowed to swear, right?

Yes, yes, please do.

You know, it's like shut the fuck up Friday. So. Yeah, so we ride this line of that all the time. And yeah, you just have to be mindful and know that you might never be 100% safe, but you can, you can be safer.

I used to think of it as like, and explain it as like spheres or concentric rings of safety, you know, and like the innermost ring, only certain people have access to that information and it sort of moves out. And the rings kind of overlap with other people's rings. Right? Yeah, that's how we build community and stuff. But like with the way things are escalating, those are changing.

Yes, very much. Yeah. I remember when it's been, let me just do math really quick, like 14 years now that I personally have been involved in this type of work in the way that I do it. And when I first started, I feel like I, you know, I was in my early 20s and I was like, friendship, like this is great. And I used to have tons and tons of friends and we would go out and do things and I would talk to them about things. And you know, now I have like a group of four people that I talk to very regularly almost every day. Trust them with my life. They know my family, those are my emergency contacts basically. Right. And then, yeah, I have our bigger group still not very big, but yeah, I just have these rings. Basically it is just like the inside of a tree, my me in the middle. And then from there it gets bigger. But yeah, you have to take a look at the relationships in your life and look at them seriously and say, how much access do I want this person to have? And that might even be apparent. I know that we've run into that as well where, you know, a parent's instinct should Always be to keep their child safe, no matter how old that child is. But in this current climate, we have also seen a lot of family members, parents included, somehow forget that and just decide to pop off and now their, you know, own child is in danger because of something they said. So, you know, I, for me, I know personally, my parents know generally what I do. I love them dearly. My mom is a terrible gossip and I will never trust her with everything because, you know, I know that she would probably tell her best friends and I don't know who her best friends would tell. So, yeah, you know, yeah, I tell her the bare minimum. That's not going to get me in trouble, that's not going to get her in trouble and that's it. So just take a hard look at your relationships.

That also brings up the question of like, who's at risk here? You know, like who's at risk? And that's changed in the last 15 years. Like who's at risk of being doxed?

Everyone. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean I, you know, I mentioned it earlier, but the threatening of a child school, it's like there was an anarchist that got doxxed and their child's school was threatened. Someone had called them and said, we know where so and so their child goes to school and you better watch out. What do you do? You know, when you've got an elementary school age child that is now essentially doxxed and being threatened with violence, it's like, obviously your family, in this case, the child should always take precedence. Right. We want to keep them safe. So everyone, everyone is at risk. Your parents, you, children. Because there's no rules anymore. There weren't really any rules to begin with, but now it's like the bar is in the gutter. There are no rules. Everyone is at risk. Yeah, and that sucks. That sucks to say out loud, but that's the reality of the situation.

Yeah. So I made an action and.

Someone'S.

Taking photos thinking that that would be a good idea for social media to like build visibility or whatever. But the flip side of visibility is that now my photo's out there, maybe my name gets attached to it and we'll just roll with andyknow. Andyknow shares it. And that information is now on the Internet and people, I'm getting social media messages, someone's calling my phone, you know what? And I'm like, hey, friend, oh no, this happened. I got doxed. What do I do?

Hey, help. Yeah, so tell someone that's close to you immediately. I mean, it doesn't have to be someone that specializes in doxing and things like that. It doesn't have to be. It has to be someone that you trust because a. Don't go through this alone. This is an emotionally exhausting thing. So find someone you trust, tell them, preferably communicate in person.

Right.

Have them come over, have like invite yourself over their house, talk about it. Go over your social media. If you need to shut down your social media for a little while, do it. I promise you it will not be the end of the world.

Yeah.

If you need to change your phone number, change it. Let only the people that are in your life that are super important that you trust with your life know that you have changed your phone number. I mentioned at the beginning, delete me. Yeah, that is a great resource if you are. I'm not a hundred percent on the cost. I want to say it's $120 for one year.

That's. We were just looking at it in strangers. That sounds right.

Yeah. And so that's not always, you know, attainable for someone. Reach out to people. There are people who will help you with this. You know, reach out to your local organizations. If you look, if, if you aren't a part of an organization, if you look online, let's say Blue sky and you look up whatever city you're in, anti fascist or something like that.

Jail fund.

Yeah, jail fund. There will be a group that can get you in contact with whoever you need to to help fundraise. Like we are here to keep each other safe. That is our priority. But something like delete me. To get that information off the Internet is great. It took them, I think it was about a week and a half to get a report back saying my Internet or my information had been wiped off. Cool sites like People Search and all that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. You know, if you were to look me up by first and last name and exactly where I live, there are things from my past like, like newspaper articles like that will show up, but nothing that is going to be detrimental to my safety or you know, my family's safety. So those are really great things. Again, like I had mentioned, if you aren't able to attain delete me, you are able to do it step by step. It does take a long time. Communicating with those companies is hard, but they do have a special unit just for that. You can locate it in their about us, contact us section.

So when you say those companies, who do you mean?

I mean. Sorry, Yeah, I mean truthfinder, peoplesearch.com that sort of Thing. There are going to be things that are kind of forever. Like I mentioned newspaper articles. There is a newspaper article from when I was in middle school.

Okay.

Because the deep lore. Yeah, yeah, there was a. There was a mathletes competition.

I don't know. Oh, Mathletes.

Mathlete like okay, okay. Like mean girls. The mathletes like math. Yeah, there was a mathletes competition and I got second place, which is the cute. Ask me how to do an equation now and I'll tell you. No, but, but yeah, there was like that and there's like a picture of tiny me and my friends with our little, you know, ribbons and stuff. That's going to be there forever.

Yeah, some things are public record too. You know, that's how our legal system works.

Correct? Yeah. So those things are forever. Just know that they're out there. Prepare yourself. I honestly have a file on myself. I know that that is interesting. Silly maybe, but what do you mean? I have a file on myself of public information.

Okay, sure. So you know what's out there.

So I know what's out there. I also, I mean I keep tabs on things like my parents information as well. And yeah, I just, I. I try not to live in a state of paranoia. I try to live in a state of readiness. And so that's going to be knowing what's out there, knowing what sites I have and things like that. And I have it all written down. I don't have it in a file on my computer and yeah, I have it in a little accordion file, says my name. It's very cute. So anyway, yeah, so I felt like.

You'Re about to start describing where it was.

I was like, no, yeah, it's just like, oh my God, could you imagine? Yeah, don't get doxed one on one. So here's my information.

Here's what is in my house.

Yeah, so yeah, so it's. Just be prepared. Know what's out there. Again, like I mentioned, set yourself on private. Unless your job is influencer or you know, you are using social media for your work and you already know the risks that come with that. Just be private. It's fine. You know, I operate a lot of the time under like a pseudo name or you know, things like that. It's. It's not that bad being anonymous. It's not that bad being under.

Flying under the radar for some of our egos to layer.

Oh yeah, yeah. That's the other thing that I wanted to talk about too in this. And it ties in with like everyday stuff Is I'm so glad I know.

What you're gonna say and I love it.

Yeah, we don't need to like. I understand that if you have information that's really cool and you want to share it with people, great, do it. But you don't need to tell everyone I mentioned shut the fuck up Friday. It's shut the fuck up every day. If I have information that I need to get to someone, I will share it with my itty bitty little group and then they can choose to disseminate that in a safe manner because some of them have a little bit more public access to those things. I don't think that total ego death is needed. But I also think that taking a look at your ego and saying, is my own popularity and is my own status, if you will, as an anti fascist worth me putting myself and other people at risk? Because I can tell you some of the coolest, most amazing people that I have ever met. I don't know their real names or what they've done or what they've done or anything like that. Nobody needs to know. No, that's the thing is nobody needs to know. There are ways to get information out without being like, oh my God, it was me. Hi, I got that information. And now, now here it is. No, no, that, don't do that. Unless you are someone that might be like a journalist or something like that, but different roles. Different roles, yeah, we have that whole thing where it's like to each of their own ability. If you are someone that needs to stay safe, then your own abilities should be within those confines of keeping myself safe, keeping my family safe. I will get this information to someone who has a more public facing platform that I know and trust. And sometimes I know for me I have to go through two or three people before that information gets to a trusted source. And then at that point it's not, not necessarily related to me at all. And it's like, go have your best life out there, piece of information. I don't want anything to do with you anymore. No. And I think that, I think that we see this a lot, this like need for our egos to be stroked in people that may be in anti fascist work for not all the right reasons. They are there to move their themselves to a higher platform, to higher status, if you will.

Yeah.

If it came down to it and there was like an emergent piece of information and I couldn't get somebody on the line when I put it out. Yeah, probably There is more than likely never a situation where that will ever have to be. I am always going to have someone to get a hold of and. Yeah. So don't let your ego rule your world because it will ruin your world and it will ruin other people's lives. Yeah. Full stop. Think of yourself, think of other people before you post something just because you want to get it out or you want to be the person to get credit. Maybe you don't want credit. Correct. Yeah.

Credit's a bad thing.

Yeah. Think about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Because. Yeah. If you're in it for the credit and the fame and the glory, let me tell you, anti fascist work doesn't have a lot of that. So just doxing. Just. Yeah. So like, don't, don't do it. Stop it.

The flip side of fame.

Yeah, it don't do. It sucks.

Yeah. You don't want to be on the list.

Yeah. So anyway, so that's that.

Cool. So let's see. We talked about digital, like, fine, okay. I asked what to do if you get doxxed. Finding emotional support, material support with your community. Scrubbing things digitally. Are there any, like, physical things that people need to do if they get doxxed? Or is that just a matter of, like, what the threat is? It is.

It's about what the threat is. You know, I, I don't have like my name on a mailbox or anything like that. I just try to keep my outside world small. I don't put my name on things unless I absolutely have to for work. It's physically my arms and things like that covered.

You're not putting giant bumper stickers on your car.

I'm not?

Yeah.

If you had asked me 20 years ago, man, I looked like every car in like a hippie movie where it's just like, yeah, yeah. All these, like, peace and love. Now I'm like, oh, God, no. So, yeah, like, not putting that out there, putting bumper stickers on your car. Like, I already drive a very, like normal everyday car that's not super recognizable. I'm not out in like a bright green, like, I don't know, Ford Focus or something like that. Which, like, if you drive a bright green Ford Focus, hell yeah, I love that for you. But like, I just have a very undescript.

Don't take it to the action.

Yeah. Don't do that.

And then don't put bumper stickers on it that say.

Yeah, and if you don't have any other form. Yeah, exactly. Like live it, but don't like, post it because. Yeah. I mean, if we're posting, if we think about how we post things on the Internet and they're. If they're public, that's basically what you're doing with, like, your car or if you have things in your window at your home or whatever. You're just putting a target on yourself in the real world, not the digital world.

So do we just explain alt culture to Internet kids? Oh, no, pre Internet, I.

Now I've done it. So. So, yeah, it's just pretend if you are. Yeah. It's like if you are elderly, like I am apparently now. Just don't. Don't put things online that you don't want other people to know. And don't put things on your car, your house, your apartment, your. Anything that is going to be out in the world that you don't want people to know about you. Because the smallest littlest thing can lead down a rabbit hole of whoop.

I found lots of knowing.

More knowing than you're comfortable with.

Yeah, I think that's part of it, too, is like, what we conceptualize as harmless information. And, like, hopefully. I don't know. I know at my job I have to do a ridiculous amount of, like, digital security training.

So do I. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think that's like, more normal than it was for whatever, our boomer parents. But, um.

Yeah, yeah, I mentioned, like, my mom, you know, earlier. It's like going through her social media and I don't want to mother my mother, but, you know, going through her social media and it's like I'm seeing photographs of grandchildren that are just out publicly. And. And even though there may have been photos of me years and years ago, they were out publicly. And it's like, oh, no. Oh, no, we're going to change. And she. Luckily, she was just like, you take it. You do whatever you need to do. I don't know what the hell to do. And it's like, all right, so I'll change your settings. My dad, totally off social media, doesn't. I don't have to worry about him. For all of his very boomer dad qualities that he has, that is one that I do appreciate is he said, I hate social media. Get me the hell off of it. So, yeah, honestly, I'm kind of there too.

Real life friends are nice.

Yeah, they are.

Let's see. Okay, those are all my big questions. What Sometimes the, like, hard make us feel paranoid episodes. Like, how do I. How do I end this in a measured way? And we were talking a little bit before we Were chatting before this interview and talking about, like, what healthy paranoia looks like. Like paranoia is there. It's a natural response. It's trying to keep us safe. But like, how do we do that without being paralyzed, you know? Yeah.

So I know I had going on the way back machine here, I had a situation where that got me into helping other people. I think one of the best things that I did because I immediately had the whomp feeling, my stomach sank and flipped and I break out in a sweat. That kind of panic attack. Right. And luckily I was with a group of friends and I reached out to the person that I trusted the most in that group and I said, this just happened. I need your help.

Yeah.

And I think being honest with your friends and not taking it on by yourself is probably step number one and one of the most important steps to do.

Because don't do shit alone.

No, because if you were are gonna be in a situation where you are doxxed and like this happens, we're panicking. We're having the oh shit moment. I don't wanna be alone in that, you know, because I'm just going to spiral. I know that everyone deals with their panic and mental health in different ways and that's okay. Whatever works best for you. I guess. This is just my suggestion is to don't go about it alone. And don't go about it alone for safety reasons too.

Yeah, that's the big thing in my brain. Yeah.

But I think that like, for me, I think that like telling my therapist about it was great. Which we went from very normal topic stuff to, okay, well, hey, so this is the thing that's happening and I just. I'm going to need to talk to you about it. So reach out to a friend, a family member that you absolutely trust because you're going to need to talk about it. You're. There's no way in hell that you're going to be able to keep this all in if you need to. If you're a person that needs to write it out. Sometimes I'll write through my panic attacks and just so I can put my thoughts into one place, rather than having a scramble word sandwich and write it in a book, don't write it online. If you are a person that is prone to panic or panic attacks, do what you normally do, whether that is breathing exercises. If you need to go sit out in the fresh air for a little bit, you can do that. Like take a beat before you decide, okay, now I have to deal with this. It's okay to Take a breath. In fact, I suggest it, because the. The road ahead is not going to be fun. So center yourself, whatever that looks like, before you take it on, like head on, and just don't do it alone. That's. That's the big take is friendships and whatever relationship, honestly, not just friendships, but are going to get you through this.

And it seems like when it comes to avoiding doxing as well, that's also like, don't do it alone.

Don't do it alone.

We have. We have to act. So don't be paralyzed, but also don't. Don't do it alone.

There's no way that you're not going to be like, oh, shit, you know, totally normal reaction, but saying, ah, shit with friends. Better.

Yeah, more measured, for sure.

Totally. So, yeah, it's, you know, it's the friends we made along the way.

Yes. Awesome. Well, let's see. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you feel like we should have?

Oh, man, I feel like I hit every little corner pocket, but awesome. Yeah, I just. I really want to stress that, like, don't live your life in fear and paranoia, but know that keeping yourself safe needs to be priority.

Yeah.

Hear, hear. Yeah.

Well, thanks for coming today and talking with us and. Yeah, I really appreciate you.

Yeah, thanks, y'. All. Keep yourself safe out there.

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Sam.